Terrain Generation: Page 2 - Godot Community Forums

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Terrain Generation

cybereality

https://www.echemi.com/community/how-many-water-molecules-are-in-a-glass-of-water_mjart2204106690_11.html

Tomcat

Erich_L …we rely on fast noise algorithms that produce a height value for a 2d input coordinate. That means each input x,z only has one y height, which then excludes the possibility of caves, 90 degree cliffs.

So that's what I'm saying, that noise-based terrain generators are in fact pseudo-generators.

cybereality Nope. I'm not ready to model on an attomaric level yet. Pardon me.

Erich_L

Note that for procedural terrain, which is what you want to look into instead of just "terrain generation", specifically I think you want real-time procedural terrain, we rely on fast noise algorithms that produce a height value for a 2d input coordinate. That means each input x,z only has one y height, which then excludes the possibility of caves, 90 degree cliffs. Rivers are easy enough but not rivers that actually flow up or down on the y axis.
There's an infinite number of ways you could combine different terrain methods to get closer and closer to the results you want, but it'll take a lot of time

Megalomaniak

Tomcat Unfortunately, the terrain changes over time. Over several years the changes are certainly not big and do not need to implement them in games, but in my case it is necessary.

In your case you could probably implement the sim in a separate thread and periodically sync result with main thread to update it. Do the sim then as a lower priority on cpu. Say update the result once per in-game year or such. You'd still have to implement some custom pixel processor to process the height-map texture/height field data. Could use gradient descent for rain/hydraulic erosion sim.

Pixophir Is this really done on a particle basis ? Maybe reasonable sized quantities of particles ?

You could probably use SPH and fairly sparse/large scale 'molecules' for approximations. But it would also look a bit toony.

Tomcat

cybereality I mean in real time. Like a realistic game, where you could pick up a glass of water, and the entire water is simulated as hydrogen and oxygen molecules. And then you could drop the glass, and the glass would shatter, based on the physical properties, and each drop of water would be simulated.

Water has surface tension and maximum drop size. If we talk about modeling the behavior of water, it is enough to imagine it as a bunch of balls, which is similar to SPH. The amount of computation is large, but much less than calculating each molecule.

Megalomaniak You could probably use SPH

Actually, proper simplification is the basis of modeling. This applies to my project to the fullest extent. I am now trying to understand the level of simplification that I can achieve.

Megalomaniak In your case you could probably implement the sim in a separate thread and periodically sync result with main thread to update it. Do the sim then as a lower priority on cpu. Say update the result once per in-game year or such.

Yeah, I have a lot of things that are going to be done in parallel threads. Only the minimum necessary part will be displayed on the screen. Updating the landscape can happen when the seasons change, which is not very noticeable and close to reality. For example, rivers usually change channel in the spring.

cybereality

This devs work in Unity looks pretty close to what you want (except for the dynamic damage).

cybereality

Tomcat

cybereality yeah, it's very close… but unfortunately:

atm there is no sediment being carried, particles have no lifetime etc... i might have to read some theory on this.

To create a simulation similar to reality you need to be an expert in many different areas… apparently this is not feasible yet.

If I go back to work, I will look for simple workarounds.

Megalomaniak

Very cool, but also something that probably could be achieved even before with the particle/dynamic paint system.

Pixophir

Tomcat To create a simulation similar to reality you need to be an expert in many different areas… apparently this is not feasible yet.

The first part has some truth in it. Let's say, some geoscience and physics don't do harm, math and programming round it up.

I have linked exemplary work in my terrain thread and in this one that addresses these things. I have made a prototype based on one those papers (the one that does drainage systems and river types), but without graphical interface.

Of course they exist, closed and open source, even for game environments, and certainly for engineering of projects in construction as well as environmental concerns, and for different kinds of regimes (the erosional and/or depositional circumstances and parameters). Much of this has a scientific background and isn't real time and others cost real money (like add-ons for Geographical Information Systems GIS). But, with some knowledge in math and programming one could sit down and hack something in.

Tomcat Feasible, if know exactly what factors need to be taken into account. And in what proportions (with what weight — the power of influence). And for a proper understanding, you need to have the appropriate specialized knowledge.

For what it is worth, I have a master in geoscience, though a long time has passed and I haven't kept up in all areas I could have a look over it, and maybe add some more knowledge through papers etc. Am offering help with the geological principles, and if it is only for writing down a specification, because I am interested in these things, too. But I won't do the programming because of lack of time and having my own ideas.

Expect such things to take years to realise. And probably an adaptation of the own ideas and plans to the harsh reality. I mean, it should doable in a finite time :-)

cybereality

It is feasible. All the math is known classical physics. Whether the simulation can run in a reasonable time is another question, but an approximation should be possible.

Tomcat

Feasible, if know exactly what factors need to be taken into account. And in what proportions (with what weight — the power of influence). And for a proper understanding, you need to have the appropriate specialized knowledge.

cybereality

Yes, what I'm saying is that you may not know all the math right now, but someone does (or various people over time). So if you read enough books or did enough research, then it would be feasible, because it is technically possible right now.

Tomcat

cybereality So if you read enough books or did enough research, then it would be feasible

Well, this is one of the main problems in the creation of games in general. Individually you can probably do almost all the elements. But there won't be enough time and energy left to put it all together into a single project and link and balance all of these elements. Therefore, my idea is to take everything ready-made (with the exception of one or two elements at most) and try to combine them. The element I absolutely have to deal with is character maturation. The main task is to work out the social interactions, taking into account the characters. Therefore, I simply do not have the resources to create a terrain generator, and I will choose from what I already have.

If I ever get back to the project…

Tomcat

Pixophir Am offering help with the geological principles, and if it is only for writing down a specification, because I am interested in these things, too. But I won't do the programming because of lack of time and having my own ideas.

This is an exceptionally interesting suggestion.

Pixophir Expect such things to take years to realise.

The years don't scare me. A little bit about my concept of working on the project. First of all, I'm going to make a completely simple proof-of-concept (MVP). Then I plan to complicate and refine it. And improving such a project can go on and on (as shown by the example of the Sims series). At what speed will be introduced new features — will depend on the demand for the game and which team will gather to work on the project. On my own, of course, I can not overpower mathematical modeling and programming the landscape generator.

Pixophir

Sure, if you have a concept let's talk about it.

Tomcat

Pixophir Sure, if you have a concept let's talk about it.

Yep, the concept is in place. But there is a problem — it is stated in Russian. It requires a translation that is more complex than a simple technical one. Very roughly (exactly in a highly simplified version) I have tried to set out here. Here it is not presented in its entirety, and I fear that it may even create a false impression, due to the difficulty of translation.

I mentioned it briefly here.

my project is supposed to be not so much a game as a scientific entertainment - "learning by playing".
…
I define the project as "Socio-Economic Constructor-Simulator" (SEC[K]S for short)

I will try to summarize the main points:

Externally (and partly in gameplay) game resembles The Sims 3 (open world). I call the project alternative to the Sims. You can say that this is a refined Sims with elaborated social relations.
Human economic activity associated with changes in terrain: as artificial (canals, dams) and natural (drought and flooding) — because it is important ability to change the terrain.

I am conscious of the scale of the project and do not intend to do the Ideal Dream Game right off the bat.

I think to start with a small primitive settlement (like a farm), even, perhaps, — low-poly. Refining and releasing new versions of the game over time.

The concept includes aspects of project development, audience coverage, and issues of commercialization.

The development of the project will depend on the interest of the public.

I think that for the discussion of the project, this thread will be more appropriate.

Tomcat

When I talk about terramorphing in the game, I roughly mean this:

Tomcat

This, of course, creepy shots, but what landscape generator allows you to implement such changes in the dynamics?

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